fourth position

[Guest pointequeen]

In fourth position is the front foot's heel supposed to be lined up with the back foot's arch or the toe. Basically, is it a separated fifth or third?

 

thanx

[Victoria Leigh]

Erin, it should be a separated 5th, not 3rd. However, if you MUST do a grand plié in 4th, (which I think should not be done, but it is done most of the time), then open the 4th as it's a bit safer.

 

When you are on pointe, or even demi pointe and relevé to a 4th position, it needs to be very crossed to make the legs look good. It should be opposite a 5th position on pointe, where you see one toe and two heels.

[balletstar811]

I really do dislike grande plies in fourth

[Victoria Leigh]

So do I, balletstar, and I have not put them in my classes in many, many years. I feel that they are unnecessary and potentially dangerous to the knees, especially for young dancers who do not have the strength, placement and rotation to do them really well, which, IMO, is most everyone!

 

Demi pliés in 4th are fine, and very necessary, as of course that position is used a lot in the center!

[Guest Terin]

Some of my teachers have us do grande pliés in fourth, but most of them just have us do demi pliés. However, when we do grande pliés in fourth, I always feel as if I am doing something wrong. however, none of my teachers have ever corrected me on my grande pliés in fourth. How exactly are grande pliés in fourth meant to be done?

[Victoria Leigh]

Terin, it is meant to be done just like any other grand plié, which means maintaining the upward resistance, alignment, and rotation as you go through demi to grand and then return to demi and straighten. It just requires more rotation to do it well than the closed positions, and puts a lot of strain in the knees. Be sure you never stop at the bottom of the plié, which allows the weight to drop into the knees. Try to feel like you are going up, not down, as you bend, and then push with your feet to use the downward energy to get back up. It's the coming up that is the hardest part in terms of holding the rotation. If you have to do them, try to use the more open 4th, if it is allowed.

[Guest Terin]

Thank you so much! What you said about lifting as you go down and never stopping really helped, because I don't think I was doing either of those. It's interesting, because I usually think about lifting up when I do plié in other postions, but I haven't been in fourth. Maybe I was worrying so hard about it that it actually made it worse. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

[Victoria Leigh]

You're very welcome, Terin! It's always nice to know that we are successful in doing our jobs here.

[Guest pointequeen]

In a releve from fifth isnt it supposed to look like the heels are together with the toes separated to prevent it to not look like a sous sous?

[Victoria Leigh]

Erin, a relevé in 5th is a sous sous!

 

In fourth you want the legs crossed, and if you are looking at it straight on in the mirror, it should be opposite that 5th so that you see two heels and one toe. If you take that position in croisé it makes the legs look very pretty, but if they were not crossed like that it would not be such a pretty position.

[Mel Johnson]

Just for the sake of reference, there are at least two schools that differentiate between sous-sous and a fifth position relevé en pointe, but they're not major players any more, and knowing the distinction is a useful tool. Most people use sous-sous (or sous-sus, to be agonizingly exact about it) for any fifth position relevé. It's no longer a foreign language in any major method.

[Guest Terin]

At our school we sometimes rise up in 5th without doing a relevé, so that our legs look as pointequeen described. But our teachers tell us in relevé to snatch up the toe too replace the heel, so relevé in 5th ends up being a sous-sus. I'm sorry if this isn't helpful, but pointe queen, I wondered if it was possible that you meant a rise instead of a relevé? Again, I'm sorry if thiis isn't helpful.

[Victoria Leigh]

The only time I would ever use a fifth that is not totally crossed would be for an elevé that is one that does not stay up, but just a very brief rise and lower without holding the position at all. This is sometimes used at the barre. Anytime that you are to hold the position the fifth should be tight, with the legs closed and from the front view you see one toe and two heels.

[Guest pointequeen]

I'm slightly confused. What I meant was more of a balance in fifth (many of my teachers don't say rise to fifth, they just say take a balance in fifth) So, usually balances in fifth are sous sous? Does it matterin different styles of teaching like vaganova or balanchine?

[Victoria Leigh]

Erin, I don't think so. If you are going to balance in fifth, then the legs must be crossed and the fifth tight. An "open" fifth on pointe is just not an attractive position at all!