Pointe work better for knees than soft shoes?

[dancepig]

I am currently reading Suzanne Farrell's autobiography "Holding on to the Air". On page 199 she states "...the way the skeleton adjusts to being on pointe enables all the weight and strain to bypass the knee joint." Can anyone give me any advice or opinion as to how correct this statement is? It makes sense to me. I am a beginning pointe student (6 months) and I have noticed that I don't have any problems with my knees doing the pointe work, and I do have a lot of problems dancing in soft shoes. I was hesitant to start the pointe work because I do have lousy knees, so have been pleasantly surprised. If Suzanne's statement is true, it would be good to let other adults who are hesitant to start pointe work (when they are ready) because they are worried about the health of their knees, so just thought I would ask if anyone of you can substantiate this statement. Thank you!

[Mel Johnson]

Sorry, but Farrell's statement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[Jaana Heino]

I would think, maybe, that when you are on pointe (not just in pointe shoes, but concretely on pointe), it is very difficult to force turnout so that there's stress on the knee - just not enough friction. Other than that, it does not make sense to me from the anatomical point of view, either - but I am not a dance professional, so I might have left something essential related to dance movement out from my consideration.

[Victoria Leigh]

One still has to rotate, jump, turn, relevé, and everything else you do in soft shoes. Working in pointe shoes is exactly the same as working in soft shoes except for the moments where you are on pointe. And between the moments on pointe you still have to plié in a rotated position, move from one foot to the other, cover space with pointed feet and turned out legs, and of course get up and down from the steps on pointe. If anything all of this puts more stress on all the joints, including the knees. Sorry, but that statement makes absolutely no sense at all to me.

[dancepig]

I understand what you're saying, which is why I was surprised to read Suzanne's statement, but I also know when you're working in pointe shoes, there is no room for error, meaning you have to be in correct alignment or is just doesn't work, at least not for me. I also know when I am in "every day mode" and having a bad knee day, if I make sure I keep my weight behind my knees when going up and down stairs, I don't have so many problems. As for the turnout - I have to make my turnout come from the hip or it just doesn't work. I also know when I'm in pointe shoes I'm more aware of getting my heels firmly down onto the floor before spring up into sous-sus, perhaps it is something such as this that she was referring to. Would be nice to ask her directly where she got that statement from!

[Victoria Leigh]

I seriously doubt that she would emphasize putting the heels down on the floor, as that is not something that is stressed in the Balanchine style of work.

[Dance_Scholar_London]

Even if the statement is true, the stress for the bones/body on pointe is incredible high. The human body is not made for dancing on pointe. I don't remember the concrete figures but being on pointe puts x times pressure of your body weight onto your feet.

[dancepig]

Suzanne didn't stress about the heels on the floor, that is something I personally noticed that I am much more diligent about when doing a demi-plié when wearing pointe shoes. Obviously a much bigger demi-plié is required when springing onto pointe than when going up to relevé wearing soft shoes. I'm not as focused on this as I should be (it is my biggest problem) when wearing soft shoes, but I know when I'm working in pointe shoes I am much more conscientious on this one aspect. I know how important a deep demi-plié is, I just don't give it as much thought as I should when wearing soft shoes. The quote is on page 199 in the hardcopy of her book. I was just surprised to read this and wondered about your opinions.

[Victoria Leigh]

The depth of the demi plié is not as important as correct usage of it. Using your demi plié well, with the correct timing and rhythm and the heels, down no matter how briefly, is the best thing to do. Sometimes one does not need a big plié at all, but a very quick one and then rebound into the next step. But still the heels should go down unless the tempo makes it totally impossible.

[dancepig]

Yep heels down! But I am always hearing MORE plié!!! You put it into language perfectly

The depth of the demi plié is not as important as correct usage of it. Using your demi plié well, with the correct timing and rhythm and the heels, down no matter how briefly, is the best thing to do

Thank you.

[Victoria Leigh]

You're most welcome! That's what we are here for, but it's always nice to hear that what we do makes sense!

[Myfairlady]

Yep heels down!  But I am always hearing MORE plié!!! You put it into language perfectly

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Ha ha! That sounds like me when I'm teaching. My students dance on nearly straight legs, esp. in petite allegros. For some reason they don't think glissade or assemble should end in a plie. Or they think they can do pique turns without a plie. Maybe that's what's going on in your class too.

[dancepig]

My basic problem is a short achilles, most likely from wearing high heels, too often and for too long of a time. I am always working at lengthing my achilles, and through the years it is getting better, but I still hear "MORE plié!!!" The pointe shoes make me much more aware of how much I NEED "MORE plié!!!"

[Xena]

Dancepig, going back to your original post, the difference you feel on having no pain when en pointe to experiencing pain on flat, is because when the knee is fully extended, the knee joint will not rotate, hence if you have damaged your knee in some way you would not neccessarily feel it when fully extended. The knee is the most complex joint and one of the most primitive joints in our body and one we take for granted; the knee was designed to be perfectly strong and rigid in that fully extended position, however, when the joint is bent, a slight rotation does come into play, and it is this rotation that can be injurious to the knee, damaging the ligaments, cartilage, and meniscus.

This is what sounds like is happening. What you do not say is if you dance in pointe shoes do you experience the same discomfort in your knees as when you dance in soft shoes?

As to the amount of pressure that is put on your joints, 85% of your body weight is placed onto the forefoot during pointe. If you standing on both feet then its ~42% each foot, but when its just one foot, its a whopping 85%!! for those technically inclined I think it ranges from 200mPa on the big toe to - ~400mPa on 5th toe bed!

and yes, there will be some sort of weight bearing pressure distributed through your knees to the ankles and then the floor. It's a very interesting topic and there are many scientific papers written about the subject.

[dancepig]

When I'm dancing in my pointe shoes, I do not have any knee problems. I tend to have knee problems in my soft shoes, and as you pointed out (no pun intended)

the knee was designed to be perfectly strong and rigid in that fully extended position, however, when the joint is bent, a slight rotation does come into play, and it is this rotation that can be injurious to the knee, damaging the ligaments, cartilage, and meniscus.

the rotation (most obvious when I do a grand plié in center in fifth or (horrors - ) fourth. In fact, on some days, when I do a grand plié in fifth in center, right foot front, my right knee just won't stay turned out and it isn't a pretty sight. Fortunately I don't perform and my teacher is aware of this errant knee, and this "little problem" is overlooked. And, fortunately for me because I would most likely simply fall on my bum, we don't do grand pliés in center in fifth or fourth when wearing pointe shoes (I'm a beginner pointe student, old, but still a beginner) I would love to read some of the information you mention :

It's a very interesting topic and there are many scientific papers written about the subject.

if you have any sort of hyperlink to anything. It is just my ongoing curiousity about all of this. I am still amazed that I have been able to counter the laws of gravity when doing a simple sous-sus in center, especially after reading your stats on the pressure on my toes.