Third position or fifth for the feet?

[airchild]

I am confused: When I do the barre exercises, I have been asked by some teachers to start with fifth position of the feet. When I slipped back to the third position, they made me go to fifth, saying, "Try harder. You should be able to do it!" In fact, in most so-called "Adult Beginners" classes, the teacher require the students to start with the fifth position.

 

However, one teacher recently noticed that I don't have enough turnout to actually start with the fifth. She said that if I am not turned out enough and still stand in fifth, then this would affect the proper alignment when I do movements in the center, such as extending my leg out à la seconde. I think that makes sense. She wants me to stay in third until I have better turnout so that the feet can be parallel to each other when in fifth.

 

However, I am wondering: if I can never achieve the amount of turn to allow my feet to stand in parallel in fifth -- which actually is impossible because my natural turnout is nowhere near 180 degrees, and to attain that is impossible at my age -- should I remain in third position forever?

[Victoria Leigh]

IMO, no. I would rather see a less than perfect 5th than a 3rd because in the center all the steps will not work if you cannot get to 5th. The problem with your thinking right now is that the 5th must be at 90º with each leg. Naturally, that is the goal, however, if one does not have enough rotation to do that safely, without distortion somewhere else, then a modified 5th position is better than a 3rd. That is just my opinion, but I feel that if you can't do 5th totally turned out, you can't do 3rd that way either and if you do it you are most likely turning out your feet and not using the rotation of the leg from the hip.

 

This said, not being able to see you, I'm not sure where I would place you, as there are a number of reasons for not being able to get into at least a decent 5th. (Not perfect, just decent. I do not expect perfect from a high percentage of the population, and especially from those beginning as adults.)

[airchild]

Hi Miss Leigh,

 

Thanks for your reply. It's good to know that the center actually REQUIRES the fifth position. So would you say that what my new teacher told me about keeping in the third is actually erroneous? (It was actually HER thinking that the rotation of each leg should be 90º, not mine.) Should I continue working in the fifth at the barre then?

 

When I stand in third, there appears to be more turnout than when I stand in fifth. Or maybe it's just an illusion, since in fifth, there is this ugly "gap" between the toes of the front foot and the heel of the back foot, making my turnout look worse than when I am in third. I don't know if this makes sense at all. One more thing: I do have tibial torsion...

 

I would say that my fifth is OK, not too great, but probably decent. Would it help if I take a picture of my third and one for my fifth position to show you?

[Victoria Leigh]

When you are in class and a teacher asks you to do something, you do it, unless of course you can't do it! You might disagree, but, the teacher is the teacher, and there is a reaason for what she is asking. Since you work with different teachers, you may need to work differently in each class.

 

Pictures would help, but not just the feet. Need to see full body in 5th and in 3rd, from front and side.

[airchild]

Miss Leigh, yes, I work with different teachers, so I have to work differently with each.

 

I have a related question about standing in fifth. I have noticed that many of my classmates have their feet close to the parallel position BUT their knees are not straight. The teachers never correct them. But I feel that they are sacrificing correct placement with their desire to have the seemingly perfect fifth position. I can even see a lot of pronation because of this. Do you think that in the long run this would lead to injuries?

 

Re: the photos, I will try to post later... do you want the head included as well?

[Hamorah]

I too prefer to use third well turned out, rather than a fifth in which the toe and heel on one side are together and the other side is wide apart. That does not mean that I won't accept a fifth that is partially open, if I see the muscles are held well. However, I find that with beginners, be they young children or late starters, it is easier for them to learn to hold the "turn out" muscles whilst they are still in 3rd. Once I see them using those muscles well, I tell them to slide their feet across further, little by little.

 

I am aware that many teachers prefer to use 5th straight away, but I am always wary, because I have had quite a few pupils who were forced to do so at their previous schools and who rolled in very badly, causing damage to their knees, as a result of trying to stand in a flat 5th. If you make a blanket decision that everyone should stand in 5th, regardless, this is what can cause the problem. A wise teacher knows what is possible and when a dancer is just not ready.

[airchild]

Hamorah,

 

Thanks a lot for your reply. Now I understand better the rationale behind why that particular teacher wanted me to stay in 3rd for a while first. It makes a lot of sense.

 

By the way, I tried to send you a PM but it says your mailbox is full or you have turned off the function. Do you mind checking your mail function? Thanks!

[Victoria Leigh]

While I don't like using third, I would certainly rather see that than a bent-kneed rolling in fifth!

[airchild]

Here are pictures of me standing in third and fifth positions for your evaluation:

 

3rd front

 

3rd right view

 

3rd left view

 

5th front

 

5th right view

 

5th left view

 

I would like to know if I am turned out enough for using the 5th position or should I remain in 3rd until I have better turnout.

[Hamorah]

I have emptied my in-box, airchild. Thanks for telling me! Looking at your photos I think that you should cross over your third position more. I look on third as being more crossed than that. The heel should at least cover the slight gap under the arch of the foot. You should also try turning out your feet more if you can. I know we always say that turn-out begins in the hip socket joint, and continues down the thighs and through the knees, but it doesn't stop there - the feet have to work too! You look as if you are holding the inner thigh muscles quite nicely, but not the back of the top of the thigh and that's what rotates the turn out the most.

[airchild]

Thank you so much, Hamorah! I will work on those things that you recommended.

[Victoria Leigh]

airchild, it looks to me, from the side views, that you are slightly tilted forward. If you were, as Hamorah said, using the tops of the thighs and buttocks muscles, you would be more upright, and that would allow for more rotation. I think you have the capability for 5th, but with the pelvis tipped forward/buttocks back (even though very slightly), it hampers the ability to use your rotators. Rotation comes from both the front and the back.

[airchild]

Thanks for pointing this out, Miss Leigh. I wonder if that's because a teacher once pointed out to me that my torso was leaned back too much, so I always make a conscious effect to stand with my torso leaning slightly forward. I also read in a book that the body should be leaning slightly forward so the weight on the feet is a tad less on the heels -- to facilitate ready movement. I guess I'll have to unlearn my overtly corrected stance!

[Victoria Leigh]

Airchild, the problem is that one should not be "leaning" anywhere! Having the body weight forward is not leaning forward. You need to be vertical, but just not allowing the weight to be back in the heels.

[airchild]

Wow, sounds pretty difficult to put into practice !!! But I'll try the next time I go to class !!!