Is there such a thing as being "over-corrected"?

[swantobe]

I have classes with a few different teachers and one of the things that I've noticed, with one of the teachers, is that I feel "over-corrected" when I leave class. By this I mean that I feel like this particular teacher "over-corrects" me and always seems to feel like she feels she needs to really explain things through. For e.g. this teacher will make a correction that she has made to me numerous times before (and this is in a syllabus class, so in a familiar exercise) and so I will correct myself and show/say I understand. But then this teacher feels like she still needs to show me what I've done wrong and how to do it correctly even though she's explained and shown me before and I can demonstrate that I can implement this correction and that I understand (she will say "yes, that's right" when I show her).

 

I have no problem with the fact that this teacher corrects me on the same things repeatedly - I need that and it takes time to change things. But I just feel like class time is wasted and I feel, well, irritated when she doesn't seem to listen to me and feels she needs to re-demonstrate the step/correction over and over.

I don't have this problem with another teacher because she will correct me (verbally) and if I can show that I understand and correct myself, she will not demonstrate and will simply move on.

 

I don't know: is there such a thing as over-correction? A point at which correction causes more discouragement than help? Or where class time is wasted by over-explaining etc?

 

I don't mean this in any way to be offensive to my teacher. I've just noticed this difference between my teachers' styles and I am not the only student who has felt this way with one particular teacher. I've also noticed that younger/less-experienced teachers tend to "over-correct" more than more experienced teachers. Could this be that more experienced teachers have found a balance between corrections, demonstrating corrections and moving on when it's unnecessary to demonstrate corrections?

 

Is this all just a symptom of the fact that we have very small classes (2-4 students in a class)?

[Victoria Leigh]

Inexperience could explain it, that and the factor of such a small class. The best way to get past it would be to try and get that correction so ingrained in your thoughts and body that you don't make the same mistake again! Make her find something new to correct.

 

[Lau, pleassssse do something about the emails bouncing. Thank you!]

[GameDamsel]

Just a thought, but maybe she wants everyone in the class (all 2-4 of you!) to benefit from a full explanation of the correction. Perhaps the other students, to a greater or lesser extent, could also implement the correction and so she makes sure she properly explains it for everyones' benefit.

 

My "hunch" is that a teacher might find some regular students they feel comfortable about correcting - because, like you, they take it the "right way" and can/will use it - and others they're not so sure about correcting directly. So they might target the correction at the student they feel comfortable about correcting, although it's actually intended more generally for the class (or even for someone else entirely!)

 

That mightn't be the case in this situation, I'm just hypothesising...!

[TemptressToo]

The thing that stands out most to me is...you are still making the same mistakes. Perhaps she thinks you aren't "really" listening to her and merely just appeasing her at the moment. If you tell her you "really got it"...then show her and make sure you do it right.

 

As they say, actions speak louder than words.

[swantobe]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Some of the corrections I am getting are because of pervasive problems/ingrained bad habits (e.g. sickling feet en l'air) that are taking a long time to fix. Some corrections are ones that she has said many times and which I correct most of the time, but when I'm concentrating hard, I might let that bit slip for a second (e.g. sometimes "dropping" arms at the elbow if the arms are in 2nd position in a grands battements exercise). But some of the corrections are also about the exercises themselves (e.g. I make a small mistake with the arms and then my one teacher will go through the whole exercise with us...when it's actually just something that slipped my mind or a mistake I was aware of and does not require an explanation of the entire exercise).

 

GameDamsel - I doubt these corrections are aimed at other students or that the teacher is not entirely comfortable with correcting another student. Recently we have had only 2 students in the class, myself and another girl, and trust me, both of us get very specific individual corrections! When the teacher wants to explain something to both of us (or the entire class), she will address all of us.

But you bring up a good point that I wouldn't have thought of.

 

 

Do you think that there comes a time when you need to move on to another studio because your current teachers are too used to your problems (so concentrate on certain ones only) or because you need a new perspective? I am changing studios soon (for various reasons, see thread on buddy board) and I went for a trial lesson at the new studio on Tuesday...it was interesting because the teacher gave me a correction about my rotation and sickled foot in arabesque, and then physically helped me to correct it, and just the different way she described it and the particular physical correction really helped...I'm not sure, maybe I just need a fresh perspective? She also made some general corrections to the class that really helped me to see things differently.

There are also aspects of my technique (especially alignment) that I need to work on but I feel like some of the ways my current teachers describe the corrections are not really helping. When they physically correct me, I get it, but I struggle to correct it on my own, especially while trying to concentrate on everything else too. Some corrections I just struggle to feel at all, so I understand them on an intellectual level but just can't translate them into my body, if that makes sense? I really struggle to "feel" my leg and foot in arabesque (some of this has to do with hyperextended knees and not being able to feel the extended leg as straight at times). I also feel like we just don't have enough time in class to address all my problems but neither of my teachers have had time for private lessons recently (nor have I had the money).

[xSugarplum]

If the mistakes you are making are because of ingrained bad habits, then I'm sure both you and the teacher know that you will need constant corrections on the same things for a long time before it goes away. Just because you can show her the correction right as she corrects you doesn't mean you'll remember it 10 minutes later, and I think she's just trying to get you to think further about things so that the correction is what gets ingrained into your moves rather than the bad habits. For some people (such as myself) having a logical explanation of what you're doing wrong and why it needs to be adjusted a certain way a good way to remember to always check for that mistake on my own, before being corrected.

 

I don't think there is such a thing as over-correction, unless it's done only for the sake of making you feel awful about yourself. You can always do the move better. If my teacher could stand over me and watch every single move I make and correct them as I went along for every single combination, I would be really happy with that because I would progress faster. Of course, the number of corrections any person can apply at one time varies, but if she's always giving you the same kinds of corrections it shouldn't mess you up. I say, enjoy the fact that she's trying to get you to improve. She could be like many teachers out there and simply not care.

 

I think it would be a mistake for you to switch studios simply because this teacher will not let you get away with making the same mistakes over and over, and it frustrates you. The best case scenario if you did switch would be that another teacher would be more lenient with you, and you would keep your bad habits forever and not progress anymore. You did admit you keep making the same mistakes...and you know it will take a long time to correct them. As you admitted yourself that the corrections slip your mind after a while, all a teacher can do is remind you again, and I think you are lucky to find one with the time and willingness to do it (you wouldn't get that in a bigger class).

 

Also, I have hyper-extended legs myself and know how hard it is to tell whether your leg is straight. If I don't have a mirror on whichever side I'm working on, oftentimes I will forget to try and straighten my knee out past my comfort level (which is usually what gets it to actually look straight) and the teacher will have to remind me. I used to have a teacher who would remind me virtually every exercise, and I was very thankful to her. Now, nobody reminds me and I assume my leg is bent more oftentimes than not. That doesn't help me to progress at all. There's nothing logical someone can really tell you about getting your leg straight if you have hyperextension. You simply have to remember to straighten them out past your comfort level. Eventually you will know how far you need to stretch your knee to get the leg to look straight. It's not really anything someone can logically correct, they just have to keep reminding you until you get the feeling of it on your own.

[swantobe]

Thanks for your reply, Sugarplum, but I think you may be misunderstanding some of the things I am saying.

 

You said: "For some people (such as myself) having a logical explanation of what you're doing wrong and why it needs to be adjusted a certain way a good way to remember to always check for that mistake on my own, before being corrected."

The problem is that I am aware of the mistake that I have made and that she has given me the logical explanation before. So, when I say, yes, I know my foot was sickled in that exercise and I'm working on it, I struggle to have patience if she explains again what the difference is between a sickled and a correctly pointed foot - because I know that, I just slipped into the habit of sickling my foot for a few seconds of an exercise. I just feel her additional explanation is unnecessary.

 

"I think it would be a mistake for you to switch studios simply because this teacher will not let you get away with making the same mistakes over and over, and it frustrates you. The best case scenario if you did switch would be that another teacher would be more lenient with you, and you would keep your bad habits forever and not progress anymore."

I'm really not sure where you got this impression of my attitude towards bad habits/ballet studies and progress

This is not why I am moving at all!!! My reasons for leaving are logistical and financial more than anything else. I am moving to a studio where I will certainly not be permitted to continue in bad habits. I am committed to changing my bad habits and to being the best dancer I can be. I am very self-motivated and very aware of what some of my problems are and desperate for teachers to help me to change them. I just get annoyed when the teacher will over-explain things (like the sickled foot) when I am asking her to help me with something else where I am truly struggling to really be able to physically correct myself (e.g. some alignment issues). I can immediately correct a sickled foot, but with some other problems, I need more help.

 

I would much rather be over-corrected than under-corrected and I am very grateful for teachers who care enough to help me.

 

"straighten my knee out past my comfort level (which is usually what gets it to actually look straight)"

I'm a bit confused - what do you mean by straightening my leg past my comfort level? I can naturally move my leg to further than straight, which is part of the problem of hyper-extended knees.

[Chihiro]

It's also possible this teacher just talks too much. ;) I'm really not being facetious here...I just find that when I teach (medicine, not ballet!), I tend to continue explaining long after my students have clearly got the point, for no real reason except that I'm on a roll and it bugs me not to be thorough. I've had to try and learn to recognize when the students have heard enough for the idea to "click", and then close my mouth and let them demonstrate their knowledge. This is not an easy skill, and it's entirely possible that your teacher has trouble with it as well.

[swantobe]

Good point groovibug. I am not a teacher per se (although I do work in a teaching capacity in a sense), but I suspect that I do this too...I often over-explain things, especially in certain subjects

 

I think some of this may also be my own frustration with the fact that I feel like I am not progressing quickly enough/sorting out my technical issues quickly enough...and the fact that I would LOVE more class time but I'm unable to get any.

[je danse dans ma tete]

I've been in this situation before with different teachers (in small and large classes, but it is more frequent in small classes) and it made me want to quit ballet. Instead of quitting, I told one teacher very politely that I appreciated the corrections but needed her to help me pick my 3 biggest things to focus on, because I couldn't assimilate all those corrections and retain them from class to class. She laid off and I felt less stressed. Oddly enough, looking back I realize that I was among the top 2 or 3 students in that class.

 

She starts up again from time to time, especially when I have a lazy day in class, but I don't mind. I think I've learned to take what I can at the moment and pocket the rest for later (sometimes, things will click after class as I practice on my own, or during the train ride home).

 

The other teacher I just couldn't approach, he was far too frightening for me at the time- so I stopped attending his class for a few weeks (about 4 classes). When I went back (I think he realized he'd been too hard on me), he ignored me for a while, but not for long. I was constantly paralyzed during his class and in tears afterwards. That class was at a higher level than I was used to and I was definitely at the bottom. Looking back now, I realize that because of him I have lovely epaulment and gained more grace in my adagio. At the end of the year he hugged me and told me not to be so hard on myself, and that he was proud of me and how far I'd come.

 

So all that to say that in my personal experience, over-correcting seems to happen when I am either one of the most advanced students in the class and am able to quickly improve in a demonstrable way, when I am not trying very hard or slacking off, or because I am at the bottom of the heap and need a lot of help!

 

I think you should count yourself lucky and just take what you can from the corrections and let the rest go until you can handle them, It is far, far worse, IMHO, to be in a class where you are undercorrected or not corrected at all. Although I've only been at this a few years, I have strong placement and can do almost everything that the girls who've been dancing for their entire lives can do (as well as they can), largely due to what I once thought of as my teachers' nitpicking. Other girls have been dancing for much longer than I have and yet are poorly aligned, cannot execute basic steps cleanly, have chronic tendon issues due to improper dancing, etc. I am not putting anyone down, but simply trying to illustrate that the teachers who undercorrect can contribute to a lot of damage through negligence.

 

If the over-correcting is psychologically hard on you and is preventing you from enjoying yourself while in class, I think it is time to talk to your teacher. do it delicately, politely, and try to place the emphasis on your needs rather than on what she is doing that you would like her not to do. For ex. "You know, Ms. X, I feel lucky to receive so many corrections from you each class. I know I have a lot to work on, but could you help me to focus on my 2 or 3 biggest mistakes? I feel like once I have dealt with those I might be able to better incorporate all the smaller corrections into my dancing and make some real progress". If you can, speak with her after class and ask about those corrections you keep getting. Maybe you'll have a lightbulb moment

 

Good luck

[xSugarplum]

Thanks for your reply, Sugarplum, but I think you may be misunderstanding some of the things I am saying.

 

The problem is that I am aware of the mistake that I have made and that she has given me the logical explanation before. So, when I say, yes, I know my foot was sickled in that exercise and I'm working on it, I struggle to have patience if she explains again what the difference is between a sickled and a correctly pointed foot - because I know that, I just slipped into the habit of sickling my foot for a few seconds of an exercise. I just feel her additional explanation is unnecessary.

 

I probably did misunderstand you, then. I'm sorry. I think being reminded constantly is a good thing, but if she's already recently given you an explanation as to why she is correcting you and how to fix it, a simple reminder when you slip back into it should be enough...I too would be frustrated if I were given the full explanation every single time.

 

I'm really not sure where you got this impression of my attitude towards bad habits/ballet studies and progress

This is not why I am moving at all!!! My reasons for leaving are logistical and financial more than anything else. I am moving to a studio where I will certainly not be permitted to continue in bad habits. I am committed to changing my bad habits and to being the best dancer I can be. I am very self-motivated and very aware of what some of my problems are and desperate for teachers to help me to change them. I just get annoyed when the teacher will over-explain things (like the sickled foot) when I am asking her to help me with something else where I am truly struggling to really be able to physically correct myself (e.g. some alignment issues). I can immediately correct a sickled foot, but with some other problems, I need more help.

 

Okay, I really misunderstood you. I thought maybe you were feeling frustrated that this teacher was picking on you so much, and since so few teachers ever seem to care about correcting adult students' technique, I thought it would have been a loss for you to move to a studio where there might potentially not be any correcting. Wasting time hearing corrections over and over is, well, a waste of time, but so is a class with no corrections at all. If your new studio will also have caring teachers then that's awesome.

 

 

"straighten my knee out past my comfort level (which is usually what gets it to actually look straight)"

I'm a bit confused - what do you mean by straightening my leg past my comfort level? I can naturally move my leg to further than straight, which is part of the problem of hyper-extended knees.

 

That's what I mean- I don't know about the feeling in your body personally, but for me, when I think my leg is straight, if I look in the mirror, I realize it's actually not, so I have to extend back further from my knee in order for my leg to actually be straight. What I mean by "past my comfort level" is that even if I *think* my leg is straight, I need to straighten it further, which feels like I'm over-extending it (thus not my default "comfort level") for it to be straight. What I feel is straight and what is actually straight are 2 different feelings, and perhaps it's due to bad habits of my own, but for me straightening my leg out completely isn't a "comfortable" position. I also have to be careful to straighten without locking the knee, which is a really fine line with me. Basically my point is that when I feel like either of my legs is "comfortable", I extend it further because the fact that I'm comfortable means it's probably bent.

 

I'd rather have been born with high arches than hyper-extended legs. :/

[Redbookish]

Quite frankly, when I'm a student in a class, and I go there of my own volition, and a teacher is on my case about something I know I am trying hard with, if I feel "overcorrected" then I just suck it up. And I have been corrected on certain things to the point where I felt really got at, and close to tears. But ... I'm a grown up & I talked sternly to myself to remind myself that the corrections were not meant personally, except to help me.

 

I don't think there is such a thing as "overcorrection." My teacher is doing his or her job, and I'm grateful to them. I'm a grown up, and I hope that I can take whatever is offered me. Teachers tend to only offer so generously to those who accept. So that might hearten those who feel "overcorrected."

 

One of my teachers described it thus: if she was on at me all the time, it was because she felt I was "teachable." And I'd far rather be considered the teachable one in a class than not!

 

And speaking as a teacher of adults who, again, choose to be at university, I really think that students need to think through and get out the other end, if they find they're having an overly emotional response to teaching. Many of the responses I read here (not just in this thread) assume there's some kind of personal feeling about a student from a teacher. Sometimes this may be the case, but generally in teaching one is not engaged in one's personal feelings about a student in the same way that one might if interacting with a friend or family member. We are professionally caring, but it's not the same as with friends etc.

 

I'm sure everyone here knows this and is experienced in this sort of professional friendliness in their own walks of life.

[Mazenderan]

I attended a class recently where I was corrected way more than usual. It felt quite full on at first, but I realised that the teacher was trying to remedy some really important alignment issues, and that the best way to do that (especially when it had become an engrained problem) was through constant correction.

 

As for explaining the point of the correction over and over again, I know that when I teach (not ballet, lol) I would always prefer to over-explain than under-explain - especially if the student continued to make the same error (I know it's a bit different for ballet due to issues of muscle memory). Also, I've learned that students can sometimes smile and nod after an explanation when they are still actually confused - so sometimes it's safer just to explain again.

 

There's always also the option that if the teacher has a lot of other classes and students she simply might not remember that she has given you the whole sickling explanation before. What Redbookish says is really true, about the assumption that there is personal feeling about a student from a teacher. Although it's a one-on-one relationship from the student's point of view, this is not the case for the teacher, who may have 50 other students in a week.

[swantobe]

Thanks for the replies. I think Je Danse Dans ma Tete hit the nail on the head for me - I start to feel a little overwhelmed and paralysed because I am getting so many corrections that I struggle to implement them all at the same time and so things slip through the cracks. If I continue to struggle with this (which isn't always the case), I think I will speak to my teacher and do what je danse suggested. I think part of the problem is that I am also aware of things I need to work on/that I'm trying to correct because I know they're a problem for me, so my teacher is correcting me, plus I am being hard on myself.

 

I just wanted to clarify that I don't feel emotionally broken down by this at all, I was just wondering if it is possible for one to get so many corrections in one class/at once that it becomes unhelpful. I don't feel that teachers are "picking" on me when correcting me; I understand they're trying to teach me something. But as I said above, between my own pressure on myself and the teacher's corrections, I sometimes get stuck as to what I should be concentrating on if it is difficult to concentrate on everything at once. To remedy this, I am trying to choose a few things I've been or am corrected on in each class to focus on specifically.

 

I am grateful for the fact that I am corrected so much and I would always prefer over-correction to under-correction and over-explanation to under-explanation. I am also one of those people who asks questions if I don't understand, but I forget that this teacher might not remember this about me.

 

I think what Mazenderan brought up about the fact that this teacher may not remember if it is my class or another class who she has explained something to is very true and I had not thought about that. I know I get confused between my students and between what I've done with them and I only have 3 in total, unlike my ballet teacher!

 

I definitely see corrections as a compliment and I feel lucky to receive them, especially in large classes.

[GTLS Designs]

Right now I am "over-correcting" one of my adult students - I literally stood next to her during the whole rond de jambe combination last week, right & left, and told her to keep her heels down! She has a crazy BAD habit of lifting her heels... er.... not allowing her heels to EVER make contact with the floor (even during a demi plie). This stems from a former teacher that required her students to keep their weight on the ball of their foot ("you should be able to slip a piece of paper under your heels"), so that they are "ready to releve" at any time. And while I understand the concept of not sitting in your heels, I also believe that one must use their whole foot to press into the ground.

 

Beyond being an odd bad habit, it has affected her posture, and put some much more tension in legs than is needed. I have met up with a lot of resistance with this student, who regularly repeats the former teacher's quotes. This student wants me to work on her turn-out and extension, and she clearly focuses on that instead of my correction of "put your heels down." However, I refuse to correct anything else until she works on MY correction (and lets go of the former teachers concept). I 100% believe that once this correction is fixed her ability to feel her turn-out and extension will improve!

 

So I would suggest trying to correct what the teacher wants you to correct.... or at least bump that up on your priority list of corrections. As teachers, sometimes we have to pick and choose what is the better correction, and it is our job to improve your technique from one stage to the next. Maybe this teachers feels that the sickling is affecting the way you use your feet? Trust that they know what is best.