Looking Sideways on Cambré Derriere in 5th

[Serrée]

Hello. I used to think the answer to this was that the arms remain in 5th throughout the back bend.

But I took a class from a really excellent teacher recently and she said for a back bend in/from 5th en haut (just talking heads & arms here) to first move the arm behind the head, then turn head to look past the front of the arm (the tricep), then bend back.

 

Looking in the mirror while doing this, I can see about 2/3 of my face- even most of my outside eye- but not my outside cheekbone.

 

I think it looks really nice this way- you can actually see the person's face- it is not blocked by the arm. It also feels really nice for me- it feels better that the other way (having my arm basically block my field of vision)

 

But since that class, in another class, I was noted for having my arms too far back- something never noted before I changed the way I am doing things. Also now that I have an unobstructed view during back bends I have a look around the room while doing it and I see that most of my classmates have their faces blocked.

 

This is also now begging the question- how should my arms be in a simple 5th? (en haut) Standing up straight with arms in 5th, if I was to turn my head and look sideways, what should I see exactly? I know looking up at the hands, they should be just in my field of vision but this does not tell me where my upper arms should be.

 

Thank you!

Edited August 17, 2010 by Serrée

[Victoria Leigh]

This is also now begging the question- how should my arms be in a simple 5th? (en haut) Standing up straight with arms in 5th, if I was to turn my head and look sideways, what should I see exactly? I know looking up at the hands, they should be just in my field of vision but this does not tell me where my upper arms should be.

 

Yes, it does tell you where your upper arms should be. The hands are connected to the arms, and it's all one curved line. If your wrists are not drooping downward, then if the hands are in your field of vision by raising your eyes but without lifting your head, the arms and hands should be in the right place.

 

If you turn your your head sideways in the position of 5th en haut you should be able to see behind your arms.

 

For Cambré with the head turned the arm will move back as you turn the head and begin the upward and backward movement. Therefore, you will see in front of the when you are bending back.

 

All of this said, one still must do what the teacher is asking you to do, and not all methods of bending, like anything else, are the same.

[Serrée]

Thank you very much Ms. Leigh! Well, I don't want to be argumentative (I hope you don't get mad?) but for 5th en haut, for me it is not so simple (I am not very good!), because the elbows can go in or out. I do think the elbow position is exactly the same as in 1st (sternum height) but that really only helps me if we start in first and then move them up to 5th. If I start in 5th, it's (still!) difficult for me to know exactly how to position the elbows.

 

But anyway, so the arms do NOT remain in 5th during a Cambré derriere!? They can't becuase if a proper 5th looking sideways looks behind the arms and a back bend looks in front of the arm then the latter arms cannot be in 5th. I am not sure now if I was in fact even told they remained in 5th but I thought they did.

 

My teacher may be correcting my arms because of the elbow placement, - even though the arm moves futhur back during the cambré- the overall shape remains fixed- maybe I am changing the shape of the arm and the lower arm is moving too far back.

 

Thank you again Ms. Liegh- I am glad to have it confirmed that I should look in front of the arm.

[Victoria Leigh]

The problem is that the elbows must not go in! Fifth en haut position is exactly the same position as first, as you noted. Therefore, if you can make a correct first, just practice raising that position to 5th until the arms finally understand what they are doing and can do the same thing no matter how they arrive there!

 

(Actually, I find first (5th en avant in Cecchetti) at sternum height to be too high.)

[Serrée]

(Actually, I find first (5th en avant in Cecchetti) at sternum height to be too high.)

 

 

Haha! Well, the same teacher who explained the backbend sequence of moving the arms back first, then turning the head sideways etc- well SHE also said to lower the arms, explaining that if the arms are lower in 1st (lower than sternum height) that will reduce the tendancy for the ribs to expand, especially on Retiré balances. And I agree, it helped SO much!. But then I go to other classes and the teachers tell me my arms are too low! Like, it is hard enough as it is to learn all this suff but then I have the added complication of having all the different versions. Plus, when in Rome....

 

 

Anyway, I just had a good chuckle when I read that

 

And thank you. I need to just start practicing simple port de bras at home- just really quietly.

 

I am not even sure what the rationale is for having arms at sternum height?

 

I also like that teacher because she gives the physical rationales behind the positions- for example, on a posé effacé devant (en 'lair) the head tilts backwards to balance the forward leg! She only gives one class a week though.

[Victoria Leigh]

That is too bad that she only gives one class a week, as it sounds to me like she is the one who knows what she is doing.

[Serrée]

Hello Ms. Leigh!

 

Well, I honestly do think all my teachers are excellent. I often tell people who are curious about adult ballet to never take classes from just one teacher because I find all teachers have a tendancy to stress some things over others and never even mention still other things- and what they stress and how they say it varies from one teacher to the next. If I had a daughter I would want to enrol her in a syllabus program for this very reason. (I imagine a syllabus has concrete points that all teachers must teach- I'm not sure though)

 

Having said that, this teacher speaks to *me*- like she reaches me in a way that the others do not quite as much. The only thing different about her is that she was never a professional ballerina- she began as a teacher and has had a huge amount of teacher training. All my other teachers are amazing ballerinas- they could in fact probably out dance her any day even being twice her age, yet does a remarkably talented ballerina who started taking classes at - I don't know- 4 years of age, really ask herself why she lowers her arms in 1st? Also, she talks a LOT. She talks a lot more than all the others. Her classes remind me of being in more of a university style class whereas some of the other classes feel a bit like kindergarden to me. Then one teacher I have tries to do physical adjustments on me, hahaha, and I feel like syaing , please just use your words- I have no idea what she is trying to say with her adjustments. But lots of students, especially if they took ballet as a child, love the hands on and understnd what is all means and they don't like the talking so much.

 

So, I love them all, really, and I think they are all necessary for me and that now includes you and Clara!!

Edited August 17, 2010 by Serrée

[Victoria Leigh]

Actually, yes, a lot of very talented "ballerinas" who started very young may well ask these kinds of questions, and, if they do, and if they have the kind of mind that really wants to know all the whys and wherefores and hows, then they can become very good teachers. Those who do not have that kind of mind and just depend on showing what they are giving the class, without giving them the knowledge that goes along with it, are not really teachers.

 

It is not surprising that the one who was not a professional but is trained might do a good bit more explaining. That is fine, as long as she does not do too much. There is a fine line between enough and too much explaining!

[Serrée]

Thank you very much Ms. Leigh