When to Straighten during a Rond de Jambe

[Serrée]

Hello, I was hoping I could lay this question to rest. I find that I keep wondering this while I am doing the exercises at the barre instead of focusing on my technique.

 

Case 1:

Preparation for Rond de Jambe à terre.

Begin on Fondu with working leg at point tendu devant.

Over 2-4 beats open leg dehors to à la seconde.

By the time you get to à la seconde, the supporting leg is straight- when does it straighten:

a)prior to leaving point tendu devant,

b)during movement to à la seconde,

c)coincident with arrivng at à la seconde?

 

 

Case 2:

Same as Case 1 above except working leg opens dehors to point tendu derrière.

This may occur during the actual exercise in addition to a preparation.

When does the supporting leg straighten:

a)prior to leaving point tendu devant,

b)during movement to à la seconde,

c)coincident with arrivng at à la seconde,

d)during movement between à la seconde and derrière (ie approx 90+45=135 deg. from the front),

e)coincident with arrivng derrière,

f) this is a choreographic thing?

 

Case 3:

Grand Rond de Jambe that commences with the supporting leg on fondu and the working leg en l'air devant, then going dehors to either à la seconde or all the way derrière.

When does the supporting leg straighten:

a)prior to leaving point tendu devant,

b)during movement to à la seconde,

c)coincident with arrivng at à la seconde,

d)during movement between à la seconde and derrière (ie approx 90+45=135 deg. from the front),

e)coincident with arrivng derrière,

f) this is a choreographic thing?

 

 

Also, what is the name of the jump(s) (or turn(s)) that a Grand Rond de Jambe from Fondu is preparing the student for?

 

Thank you very much!

Edited August 17, 2010 by Serrée

[Hans]

Typically, the knee would gradually straighten during the rond de jambe in all the situations you've listed, but if your teacher demonstrates or asks for it differently, by all means do it as requested.

 

A grand rond de jambe beginning with the supporting leg in plié and straightening as the working leg goes to the side is helpful for all kinds of fouettés that involve a relevé or jump, as well as grand pas de basque, and probably other things that don't come immediately to mind.

[vrsfanatic]

The movements you have described in Vaganova terminology are 1 & 2. prepartion for rond de jambe en dehors or en dedans with the toes pointed to the floor, 3. Demi and grand rond de jambe with the working leg held at 45 or 90 degrees with demi plie/releve (not to be confused with the rise to demi pointe, although this is also studied). As a classroom study, in all 3 cases, the demi plie on the supporting leg deepens as the working leg draws the line from front (or back) toward direction side. It is visual but if I must describe it, I would say almost 1/2 way between front /or back and side. The supporting leg begins the straightening from 1/2 way between front /or back and side (again visual) and must be straight as the working leg arrives side. In a nutshell, both legs must arrive to the desired points with both legs achieving their desired goals. If I have to choose A B C or D...

1. A and B (not after, that is too late, together with is better)

2. B and as the working leg arrives side

3. B and C

 

Actually I find you ABCs quite confusing since there does not seem to be a logical order not listed repeated in each case and all 3 movements are related.

 

I have no idea what you are asking in the jump?

[Serrée]

Typically, the knee would gradually straighten during the rond de jambe in all the situations you've listed, but if your teacher demonstrates or asks for it differently, by all means do it as requested.

.....

 

 

Thank you Hans! Well I recall a class in which, for Grand Rond de Jambe, we were told to straighten devant before moving dehors otherwise it is a "cheat"- . In another class , for rond de jambe à terre en plié we were specifically told not to straighten until 135 degrees. But normally nothing is said about where to straighten and I can't really tell by looking at them. So, I didn't know, if there are rules are not. Too me, there would be preferred methods because these exercises are in preparation for something down the road and there is normally a most efficient way to do anything.

 

....

A grand rond de jambe beginning with the supporting leg in plié and straightening as the working leg goes to the side is helpful for all kinds of fouettés that involve a relevé or jump, as well as grand pas de basque, and probably other things that don't come immediately to mind.

 

ok, thank you! Yes that is what I was looking for

[Serrée]

........Actually I find you ABCs quite confusing since there does not seem to be a logical order not listed repeated in each case and all 3 movements are related.

........

 

 

Oh I am so sorry vrsfanatic- that was partly a cut and paste error. I have corrected it and reworded it to make it clearer.

 

So anyone else, if the letters don't match up, it is because I edited the original post- I am sorry, I didn't think about that until after I edited it!

 

 

........I have no idea what you are asking in the jump?

 

What I meant was what "real" moves in the centre does the Grand Rond de jambe (from plié) apply to. Hans above said Fouettes for example. Because if I know what move they apply to then I can think about that while doing them and it would give clues as to how to do the move. For example, if it applies to a turn, then opening the leg while straightening would actually help the person turn.

 

........As a classroom study, in all 3 cases, the demi plie on the supporting leg deepens as the working leg draws the line from front (or back) toward direction side. It is visual but if I must describe it, I would say almost 1/2 way between front /or back and side. The supporting leg begins the straightening from 1/2 way between front /or back and side (again visual) and must be straight as the working leg arrives side. ......

 

Thank you very much, that is what I wanted to know!!! See, that also tells me that that the "real" move these exercises apply to is one in which the working leg swings to the side while the supporting leg is still on the ground (how else to deepen the plié that be on the ground)

 

So, in going from front to side, the supporting legs first deepens, then straightens, like gathering momentum. This is exactly what I wanted to know, thank you vrsfanatic- see I never knew that

[Hans]

Thank you Hans! Well I recall a class in which, for Grand Rond de Jambe, we were told to straighten devant before moving dehors otherwise it is a "cheat"- . In another class , for rond de jambe à terre en plié we were specifically told not to straighten until 135 degrees. But normally nothing is said about where to straighten and I can't really tell by looking at them. So, I didn't know, if there are rules are not. Too me, there would be preferred methods because these exercises are in preparation for something down the road and there is normally a most efficient way to do anything.

 

Yes, sometimes a teacher may want it to be done differently from the usual way in order to focus on something specific. If you're not sure how they want you to do it normally--that is, when they don't specify a particular way--it never hurts to ask just so you're certain.

[vrsfanatic]

To be honest, I am not sure I am following the connection between demi and grand rond de jambe and the movement fouette. In one movement the working leg circles the supporting and in the other the supporting circles while the working leg lengthens and reaches in directions front, side and back. There is no deepening of the demi plie in fouette, as in demi and grand rond de jambe with demi plie/releve before moving from front to side or back.

 

Now if we are discussing fouette efface to efface, en dehors and en dedans, I understand the discussion, but this is the only case I can think of at the moment. Am I forgetting something?

[Serrée]

....Now if we are discussing fouette efface to efface, en dehors and en dedans, I understand the discussion, but this is the only case I can think of at the moment. Am I forgetting something?

 

Do you mean the Fouetté 360 degree turn- as in 32 fouettés? I think that's what Hans was talking about. The other types- I understand what you mean, there is no rond de jambe. But I don't know enough about which moves first deepen their demi pliés. That is the first time I have heard of that. But hopefully Hans will respond because I am a beginner and this is a bit over my head.

[Serrée]

... If you're not sure how they want you to do it normally--that is, when they don't specify a particular way--it never hurts to ask just so you're certain.

Thank you Hans! The thing is that I take recreational ballet in large classes and questions aren't really encouraged- in my case they may very well hurt (seen as a nuisance etc). That is why I am here I hope that is ok.

[vrsfanatic]

Thank you...now I get it. The whole time I am discussing fouette from pose to pose and you are discussing fouette which opens front and does the demi rond de jambe side! Disconnect for sure on my part, not yours!

 

I am bowing out of this conversation. Vaganova fouette tour (entournant) has nothing to do with your question. There is no demi rond, instead the working leg opens directly side with the demi plie.

 

From my American background however, the demi plie does deepen as the working leg is carried to the side from front (or back). Stay in demi plie on the supporting leg until the deepest point of the working leg arriving to the side. The releve occurs as the working leg whips back/front from at the height of 90 degrees.

 

There is another way that rises to demi point as the working leg goes toward side. I have no idea how to teach this one. Sorry!

 

Maybe you could edit the title of this question so it is clear that you are discussing fouette turns? How about: Fouette turns...when to straighten during the rond de jambe?

 

FYI, this is far from a beginner movement.

[Serrée]

Thanx vrsfanatic- the thread I started was about rond de jambe barre exercises. I merely asked what centre steps grand rond de jambe (that begins on plié) applies to.

[vrsfanatic]

Got it!

[gav]

Serrée, I say go for it and ask. If you don't feel comfortable asking during class itself, catch the teacher before, in between barre and centre, or after. I say to ask because in my experience the time that the supporting leg straightens -- especially in rond de jambe à terre -- depends on the exact exercise:

 

I've done exercises where the supporting leg straightens when the working leg is still in tendu devant.

I've done exercises where the supporting leg straightens by the time the working leg is in second (like in the common preparation for rond de jambe à terre).

I've done exercises where the supporting leg straightens gradually so that it finishes as the working leg arrives in tendu derrière (most commonly with an arm that sweeps to elongé).

And I've done exercises where the supporting leg stays fully bent throughout the rond de jambe and straightens only after/as the working leg arrives in tendu derrière.

Etc.

 

And my teachers had different intentions with every different type of movement.

 

As for steps, you could do a grand rond en l'air from fondu in the centre just as at barre (in adage, probably). Or in grand allegro with a jump. Or use the movement in a renversé. I'm sure there are still more!

[Serrée]

ok Thank you Gav!